Automated Decisions?
To what degree do you think automated decisions are acceptable in online poker? In other words, at what point does something cross over from being an assistance to being a bot?
isnt a hud making desigions based off a automated designion?
HUD doesn't make decisions, it gives us the information and then we have to make the decisions.
I suppose that it crosses over from being an assistance to being a bot when it's literally playing for you and the actual account-owner doesn't have to be present in order for the bot to play a session.
Either that or if the bot actually tells you every single move like "fold", "fold", "raise to 125", "all in" and all you have to do is click buttons and follow its instructions.
Even small/obv decisions?
Examples:
1. Fold to river all-in of pot size or more when your hand is 10-high or worse
2. Check hands 27os, 28os, 29os, etc when in big blind and multiple limpers
3. Call any decision where you have 2000+ chips invested and less than 10 chips remaining
4. Call all post flop bets where a single opponent has invested 95% of their stack preflop.
Even small and obvious decisions. If automated decisions are allowed it can be adjusted to program less obvious decisions and you have yourself a bot.
And the obvious decisions don't need a long decision time! So you would do it perfectly yourself.
Poker is a mind game with a certain amount of luck involved. Everyone is perfect capable of clicking buttons. The use of HUD is the absolute stretch of what can be used. A HUD gives you information and its up to you to use it to your benefit.
A HUD that gives you a suggestion of what to do is crossing the line imo.
why is it in a live game you can't have all this hud crap. no outside influence or information...yet you on-line guys can't seem to function without one...my biggest beef is that they are not free for everyone, it's supposed to be a skill based game, not one of if I have more money than you I get a hud and you don't, skews the game.. the information available on a poker table should be available to everyone. it's up to you if you get the info or use it..
lol a hud is cheap for a start and its a choice whether or not you wish to buy one and if ur playing live its one table not 15-20 big difference if ur playing live you can make your own hud in your head
If said device gives one an advantage over one who doesn't use it or has a cheaper model is shouldn't be allowed.. either it is provided for everyone or it is not and therefore cannot be used..the cost of the device isn't at issue..it's sad what the on-line poker sites are doing to a beautiful game....
There is no "cheaper model", with any HUD you just pick the information that you want displayed for you whether its basic stuff like VPIP and PFR or more complex stats like check/raise turn %, cbet % on paired boards, etc. As a single tabling player you could easily create those stats manually if you had the desire to do so - you're making it seem like they're hard to obtain, you just don't want to learn about them.
With regards to what poker software and technology has done for poker, I cannot possibly argue that it hasn't made poker a ton harder to beat / make a living at. But on the other hand, the introduction of HUDs and other poker software has undeniably progressed the analytics of the game, helping along the reputation of poker from being a gambling game to a skill game. We now have a deeper understanding of the game as far as math and theory goes, it would be silly for online grinders to not ultilize HUDs.
not arguing that you cannot use them just that if they are legal to use they should be available to everyone, if you can buy a device that gives you an advantage over someone that doesn't have one it shouldn't be allowed.. gaming sites should provide them so they know everyone has a fair shake.
poker is a manual game, no automation required
That is what they are doing by allowing it. There is a market which allows you to make use of those tools! Each developer has a different view of how it should work. Gaming sites should stay away from this, because it will benefit them in the end.
providing and allowing are 2 separate things...they should pick a system provide it to all clients and be done with it, if the info is provided and you don't make use of it, that's on you..there isn't or shouldn't be any middle ground..isn't a loose translation of robot, a machine the does a task, huds do a task so they are robots....
I am or hopefully will be a recreational player, there are very many of us. I along with countless others will not be purchasing any said HuD. When I play against you, you have access to info that I do not, that is an unfair advantage to you with the assistance of a robot..
nah it really isnt an unfair advantage tho will unfair would be if i have an edge that you can't get even if you wanted/ did'nt want to have becasue ppl have the choice to get a hud this accerly makes it a fair advantage for ppl who have one becasue everyone HAS THE OPTION to get one
If that is your point of view, then it means that you have to create your own software that stores the information from Hand History in a database. Then you collect the info from your own created database and display that information.
Pokerstars is providing the Hand histories, theirfor they are providing you the information. If someone is able to program a HUD, they would have an edge vs someone that isn't. So that is the main reason to allow HUD's based on information from your own hand histories.
anything that costs money that gives you information should not be allowed at the table.. if poker stars gives everyone a hand history then fine, that's where it stops. Unless it's free to everyone shouldn't be allowed..
I propose that HuD displays are robots and should be banned. it may not make the decision for you but it does give you info you wouldn't readily have, isn't that how they started out just complying information...? now they are cleaning pools, floors, windows, manfacturing damn near everything, so the next logical step is that the HuD will be making decisions in the near future. When is enough enough, not going to stop until the game is ruined..
Does this logic apply to other games and sports?
Swimmers buy goggles to help them see underwater.
Bowlers buy their own balls and special bowling gloves.
Chess players buy software to train themselves and analyze their gameplay.
So why would it apply for poker?
"HUDs" when referred to as programs like HM and PT are not solely for displaying in-game information at the tables. They are also vehicles used for tracking ones play, analyzing stats (off the tables), and replaying hand histories. So do you think these functions shouldn't be allowed either?
not to mention expensive training facilities with infinite resources. man If I could get in there i'd be playing tennis professionally. but it's not free
people are getting personal assistants so they don't have to worry about certain things in live, so they can fully focus on their sports/profession/anything.
A HUD is simply a device functioning as an assistant keeping track of certain things, so players can focus on playing
It doesn't cost money. Technically you could create the software yourself. Because the information is there.
Here is an example on what you could do to recreate the software.
Use a notebook (one with paper).
Once your on a table start writing hand number and player names. Write down their moves and there you have the Hand history.
Next step. Every time a player raises you change the PFR (preflop raise) number in your notebook. You can do the same with all the other the numbers like VPIP, 3Bet, Fold to 3Bet, Cbet. So your notebooks have become your HUD.
If you have programming skills you could create software to do all this. If not you can buy something that turns your HH into a database. It can be free, but you can improve the quality by buying something.
In the 21st Century we use computers for that, back in your era it was different. So either go with the time and use what is available or do it old fashioned.
YOU actually have the advantage just 1 or 2 tabling and being able to watch the action live , rather than relying on a statistical representation of what happened
A hud might tell you that over 5 orbits (45 hands) Willtakem got involved in 20% of hands of which he raised 14% and he reraised 6% ,then on the flop he cbet 50% of the time and folded to a raise once . Also he called from his bb 2 out of 5 times and checkraised the flop once .
What do you do with that information ? The only thing it tells you is that Willtakem isn't a complete maniac wanting to play any two cards and also he's not a complete mouse who only wants to play QQ+
You could pick up way way more useful information just by watching the table yourself
But online regs need to play lots of tables to make money . They're not showing off or enjoying playing like robots it's simply that if they play 1 or 2 tables at a time then they will be working for absolute peanuts like literally $2/hr
The only way you can make a living playing 1 or 2 tables at a time is if you play high buyins say $100s+ . Now you need a huge bankroll of $50k+ to withstand the variance . Plus you really need to be very very good to beat the competition there (and the rake ofc) . Its just not feasible for 99% of ppl who are trying to make a living from online poker
So they have to play a lot of tables and because they are unable to watch all of the tables "live" they use a hud which watches the tables for them and records the action in a statistical format . It's NOT as good as watching the action yourself in realtime ...
The area where a huduser may have an advantage is that the hud remembers players they have played with before so if I play a tourney with Willtakem on Monday 12th then I see him again on Friday 16th in a different tourney then the hud will be able to tell me the statistics of how he played in the monday tourney . But even that isn't very reliable information . Maybe monday you were bored and watching a movie the same time , maybe it was a crappy tourney you werent interested in or you were drunk . Maybe Monday you played tight but between then and now you read an article about loosening up your game and now have decided you're going to play aggressively with lots of hands
The point is the effectiveness of a hud is directly proportional to the sample size of hands you have on a player and for this reason recreational players don't have anything to be wary of about huds because hudusers are not going to have any decent size sample of hands on the recreational player and so the only information they can reliably use is basic info that anyone watching the table could easily pick up without the use of a hud
Not arguing btw just trying to put your mind at ease if you imagine a bunch of pros sitting there with some super computer type stuff analysing your every move . Unless you play like a complete monkey then they're not going to be able to reliably use any but the most basic of stats which essentially amounts to does this player play a lot of hands ?, is he a calling station ? Is he aggressive or passive ? All stuff that you as a primarily live player should be very used to working out for yourself anyway
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